Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

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gooner4life
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Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by gooner4life »

As we rapidly approach the end of the current season, and people frantically look at promotion and relegation spots, is it time to address the Elephant in the room, that of the dwindling numbers of teams on Saturdays.

Currently we have Sat Div 1 - 10 teams
Sat Div 2 - 10 teams
Sat Div 3 - 8 teams
Sat Div 4 - 7 teams (Yes I know there are actually 9 teams but 2 of them don't have reserves and so shouldn't be in a 2 team Div)

Would not the sensible thing to do to look at having 3 Divs of 12 for next year?

Should a team like Burundi or MU Stars be able to get promoted from Div 4 to Div 3 with out a reserves side?

Or with some strength of numbers in the single team Divs (5,6 and 7 all have 10 teams) Should we be encouraging more single team Divs at the expense of A&B Divs?

Regardless of your preferences, don't you think it would be good to have these discussions now.. before next year and avoid the schmozzle that happens at the beginning of every season with teams moving up and down Divs and making a mockery of the finishing positions of teams?

Is this to much to ask from the SAAL? Is their time up and should more of us look to the Collegiate league and the FFSA??

As usual I am sure the response of the SAASL to this looming problem will be glacial and inadequate leaving teams this season once again to fight out spots on the table that may well end up being inconsequential. :roll:

Perhaps if we the clubs can come to a consensus we could present them with a plan..

Oh right this is the Amateur League, clubs working together for the benefit of each other.. :lol: What was I thinking! :(
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by RowePark »

had similar thing last year with sunday div 4, there were 8 teams and then one got kicked out, then 5 teams got promoted and only 1 relegated from div 3, so it was not great for anyone, i can imagine that it is like for the saturday 3/4 teams this year. with more teams looking to move / fold i think both days probally benefit from 3x12 team leagues.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

Absolutely agree - 3 teams of 12 makes perfect sense. With stretched facilities, volunteers this would also go some way to funnelling new players to existing clubs - more c grades etc and ultimately, more teams playing on the same day at same venues as C grades follow A and B grades.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

* edit...."3 LEAGUES of 12"

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Lucas Leiva »

I think you'll find that some of those teams in the top two divisions will no longer be in SAASL come 2017, creating an even bigger imbalance.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Flinders SC »

Has to be something done & this makes the most sense.

Div 3 & 4 are a shambles this year with all the byes.
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Paleon Patros Germanos »

Lucas Leiva wrote:I think you'll find that some of those teams in the top two divisions will no longer be in SAASL come 2017, creating an even bigger imbalance.
Tell us more
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Paleon Patros Germanos »

I raised this a few years ago as a topic and agree it is the way forward.
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Radion »

Paleon Patros Germanos wrote:
Lucas Leiva wrote:I think you'll find that some of those teams in the top two divisions will no longer be in SAASL come 2017, creating an even bigger imbalance.
Tell us more
I assume he's referring to the expansion of the FFSA. Some teams may look at moving there.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Baresi »

gooner4life wrote:As we rapidly approach the end of the current season, and people frantically look at promotion and relegation spots, is it time to address the Elephant in the room, that of the dwindling numbers of teams on Saturdays.

Currently we have Sat Div 1 - 10 teams
Sat Div 2 - 10 teams
Sat Div 3 - 8 teams
Sat Div 4 - 7 teams (Yes I know there are actually 9 teams but 2 of them don't have reserves and so shouldn't be in a 2 team Div)

Would not the sensible thing to do to look at having 3 Divs of 12 for next year?

Should a team like Burundi or MU Stars be able to get promoted from Div 4 to Div 3 with out a reserves side?

Or with some strength of numbers in the single team Divs (5,6 and 7 all have 10 teams) Should we be encouraging more single team Divs at the expense of A&B Divs?

Regardless of your preferences, don't you think it would be good to have these discussions now.. before next year and avoid the schmozzle that happens at the beginning of every season with teams moving up and down Divs and making a mockery of the finishing positions of teams?

Is this to much to ask from the SAAL? Is their time up and should more of us look to the Collegiate league and the FFSA??

As usual I am sure the response of the SAASL to this looming problem will be glacial and inadequate leaving teams this season once again to fight out spots on the table that may well end up being inconsequential. :roll:

Perhaps if we the clubs can come to a consensus we could present them with a plan..

Oh right this is the Amateur League, clubs working together for the benefit of each other.. :lol: What was I thinking! :(
I think you raise some very good points Gooner.

I hope that the amateur league will look at it, they need to get on top of this early next year otherwise they will look more amateurish then they should!

What occurred in the lower leagues is an absolute disgrace and if left to continue then they risk losing more teams and hence become insignificant in the next 5 years.

Maybe that's what they want so they can take their money all the way to the Bank......

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by bloodypassit »

One issue that could arise if the competition went to 12 team divisions is some clubs share their ground with other user groups ie :- cricket, baseball etc .Also going from a 22 week season ( 18 rounds + 4 cup rounds) to a 26 week season may put further strain on facilities , volunteers etc

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Knight15 »

bloodypassit wrote:One issue that could arise if the competition went to 12 team divisions is some clubs share their ground with other user groups ie :- cricket, baseball etc .Also going from a 22 week season ( 18 rounds + 4 cup rounds) to a 26 week season may put further strain on facilities , volunteers etc
Play cup midweek, if you don't have proper lighting use the other teams venue
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

Knight15 wrote:
bloodypassit wrote:One issue that could arise if the competition went to 12 team divisions is some clubs share their ground with other user groups ie :- cricket, baseball etc .Also going from a 22 week season ( 18 rounds + 4 cup rounds) to a 26 week season may put further strain on facilities , volunteers etc
Play cup midweek, if you don't have proper lighting use the other teams venue
and lose home advantage - sounds completely fair to me.

What if neither club has good enough lighting?
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

Play early 2 -3 rounds of the cup in pre season. Use neutral venues like Grange when others aren't available in preseason - this will actually make pre season games more meaningful too. Then play the round of 16/qtr/semi mid week at neutral venues under lights.

Use the current week off and 3 cup weekends to accommodate the extra league games. Sorted.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

Der kaiser wrote:Play early 2 -3 rounds of the cup in pre season. Use neutral venues like Grange when others aren't available in preseason - this will actually make pre season games more meaningful too. Then play the round of 16/qtr/semi mid week at neutral venues under lights.

Use the current week off and 3 cup weekends to accommodate the extra league games. Sorted.
The issue with that is that is that then those rounds aren't pre season games. They can't be used to get players up to fitness levels, evaluate players, tinker with positions and formations etc.. Pre season should be exactly that, pre season. All this would mean, would be a longer pre season as the top teams who want to go far in the cup would ensure their teams are raring to go.

Now, cup rounds for catch up games - as was found this season, the blank week ended up being too early and not many catch up games were required at all. Then by the time both sides were out of the cup we had one round left and that was lost to weather as well.

No decent reason why catch up games can't be played after the official end of the season, we're amateur footballers in a little amateur league. Games do not need to all finish at exactly the same time.
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by bloodypassit »

Is Grange available on weekends during Feb- March .... i was of the understanding Grange Cricket Club had the rights to the ground during the cricket season

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

Plus, how many games will be lost in Feb/March due to the weather as well
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

You can still have 2 or 3 pre season friendlies before 2 or 3 cup fixtures without increasing pre season. Players tend to lose interest in my experience if there's too many pre season weeks without games. I dare say most coaches only tinker for 2 or 3 games. Thereafter you probably want a couple of settled competitive hit outs with your best 11-14 anyway.

And league games should be sorted before the last round. Promotion/relegation/championships being decided after the end of the year is not good for anyone...unless you're a relegation struggler waiting to pick off a team that has less to play for/fewer available players after the season has ended.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

bloodypassit wrote:Is Grange available on weekends during Feb- March .... i was of the understanding Grange Cricket Club had the rights to the ground during the cricket season
Correct, I believe the person who suggested that is also at a club that shares with a cricket side. Hence, he doesn't care about giving up home advantage as he would have to anyway.
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

People want to play. I'm personally not fussed if a few cup games are at neutral venues.

Anyway like you say GIAE in regards to playing league games after the season, we are amateurs - ie what does it matter where/when we play...every team always has unavailability most weeks and coaches tinker as a result.

I think the move to fewer leagues with more teams is inevitable.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

Der kaiser wrote:You can still have 2 or 3 pre season friendlies before 2 or 3 cup fixtures without increasing pre season. Players tend to lose interest in my experience if there's too many pre season weeks without games. I dare say most coaches only tinker for 2 or 3 games. Thereafter you probably want a couple of settled competitive hit outs with your best 11-14 anyway.

And league games should be sorted before the last round. Promotion/relegation/championships being decided after the end of the year is not good for anyone...unless you're a relegation struggler waiting to pick off a team that has less to play for/fewer available players after the season has ended.
2 or 3 games isn't enough for match fitness. Also, then gets late to organise other games if your team is knocked out of the cup.

The A's may only tinker for 2/3 games but then there's a knock on effect to all the other sides.

As for catch up games, it's the amateur league. It's not always possible to play all games in the allotted time. Not every club has lights that are good enough. If you're in a promotion/relegation battle - why would you give up home advantage?
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by God is an Englishman »

Der kaiser wrote:People want to play. I'm personally not fussed if a few cup games are at neutral venues.

Anyway like you say GIAE in regards to playing league games after the season, we are amateurs - ie what does it matter where/when we play...every team always has unavailability most weeks and coaches tinker as a result.

I think the move to fewer leagues with more teams is inevitable.
Because we sign up to play on certain days. Midweek games are great, if they're possible. They're not always possible though. Why give up home advantage? Why give up your bar take?
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Der kaiser »

All valid points to an extent, but outweighed by the reality that there will be fewer clubs on Saturday (in the absence of an FFSA SAASL merger), necessitating fewer leagues with more teams per league.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by RowePark »

Der kaiser wrote:All valid points to an extent, but outweighed by the reality that there will be fewer clubs on Saturday (in the absence of an FFSA SAASL merger), necessitating fewer leagues with more teams per league.
my U11s managed it this season 21 league games, and 2 cup games and start/finish the same weekend as SAASL

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

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Der kaiser wrote:All valid points to an extent, but outweighed by the reality that there will be fewer clubs on Saturday (in the absence of an FFSA SAASL merger), necessitating fewer leagues with more teams per league.
Clubs come and go. Nothing new there. Not so long ago there wasn't a div 4, and div 3 had the troubles. Then they had a lot of teams swap from Sun (the Villas, Lion, Pumas, just to name a few), add another div (uni, oisc) or just pop up out of nothing. I agree with the 10 team/league group, except for the lowest divs, which can go to 12 teams, as they usually don't have matches on cup rounds, after round 1 or 2. Either that or go to 6/7/8 teams in lower leagues with 3 rounds, (15-21 games).

Plenty of solutions that don't necessarily require 12 teams for all.

While almost everyone likes the idea of 'more games' they also appreciate a cup weekend off as a break.

Either way, it's all moot, as no-one knows how many teams will register for next year. Then they will have to do a quick structure at the league that everyone will complain about, and it'll all be thrown out the window when someone folds after week 2.
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by magicfootball1 »

getting the SAASL Dinosaurs to change anything or address the growing ring players from fed's is another big issue. Giving video evidence and photos is not enough, whats the point of having cards with photos if they never do anything about it @! ( not a once off case, time to bring in random inspections, lose points and it will stop )

Good luck with the idea, i think its good to consolidate the Saturday league :)

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by Flinders SC »

Der kaiser wrote:People want to play.
Exactly. After a league season with TWELVE matches, I'd much prefer we have midweek games and no other breaks if that's what it takes.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by gooner4life »

bench-warmer wrote:
Der kaiser wrote:All valid points to an extent, but outweighed by the reality that there will be fewer clubs on Saturday (in the absence of an FFSA SAASL merger), necessitating fewer leagues with more teams per league.
Plenty of solutions that don't necessarily require 12 teams for all.

While almost everyone likes the idea of 'more games' they also appreciate a cup weekend off as a break.
As I said in my original post 12 teams in each Division may not be the answer! This isn't about trying to secure more games per say rather that there is a consistent and transparent process for determining how the leagues are structured, how many in each, who plays in each and the requirements to play in each.

The current system is obviously broken and needs to be fixed. If the SAASL won't move to do this then then clubs need to take action, policy and ideas too the league and make them aware the consequences of not fixing the problems will be the continued loss of clubs to other leagues and their evtual demise.

As you pointed out
bench-warmer wrote: Either way, it's all moot, as no-one knows how many teams will register for next year. Then they will have to do a quick structure at the league that everyone will complain about, and it'll all be thrown out the window when someone folds after week 2.
The question arises is why as clubs to we allow the SAASL to do this? They are supposed to be running the competition for the benefit of all of us.

Why is the registration date for new clubs January? (*Jan 15 was the deadline for new clubs to register this year) Why is the Deadline not the end of September, allowing months more time to sort out any problems. If new clubs can't get the paper work in time then they simply must wait till the next season or go elsewhere.

Not knowing how many teams will be in the competition until March as it is most years is unacceptable and unnecessary with a simple administrative shift. And yes before you start I am aware of the limited office hours and staff the SAASL has.. I am not proposing more work.. simply shifting when it occurs.

It seems however that all to often the reason these things happen is so that the league gains the revenue from the new clubs when they register and so leave the door open till the last minute to accommodate them. Money that they the squirrel away with no obvious returns to the clubs even when promised (As with the cash clubs were going to receive back from the SAASL as part of the 5oth anniversary). While players pay out of their pocket for a full season of games that they are denied when incomplete divisions are formed and teams are allowed to complete contrary to the SASSLs own rules. (I.E. One team clubs in two team divisions.)

If the players don't complain to there own clubs however and the clubs don't complain or better yet help propose some better changes and systems, then things won't change and once more it will be players and clubs who will bear the brunt of the SAASL's seeming inability to administer the completion they oversee on our behalf.

:(
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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

Post by RowePark »

gooner4life wrote:
bench-warmer wrote:
Der kaiser wrote: snip

:(
agree with you i dont see why it takes so long, they have the cut off which they could move as well and it at least gives the structure of the leagues and the fixtures should not take as long as they do, if this helps bring them forward then it would be another positive outcome.

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Re: Time for 3 Divs of 12 on Saturday?

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gooner4life wrote:
bench-warmer wrote:
Der kaiser wrote:All valid points to an extent, but outweighed by the reality that there will be fewer clubs on Saturday (in the absence of an FFSA SAASL merger), necessitating fewer leagues with more teams per league.
Plenty of solutions that don't necessarily require 12 teams for all.

While almost everyone likes the idea of 'more games' they also appreciate a cup weekend off as a break.
As I said in my original post 12 teams in each Division may not be the answer! This isn't about trying to secure more games per say rather that there is a consistent and transparent process for determining how the leagues are structured, how many in each, who plays in each and the requirements to play in each.

The current system is obviously broken and needs to be fixed. If the SAASL won't move to do this then then clubs need to take action, policy and ideas too the league and make them aware the consequences of not fixing the problems will be the continued loss of clubs to other leagues and their evtual demise.

As you pointed out
bench-warmer wrote: Either way, it's all moot, as no-one knows how many teams will register for next year. Then they will have to do a quick structure at the league that everyone will complain about, and it'll all be thrown out the window when someone folds after week 2.
The question arises is why as clubs to we allow the SAASL to do this? They are supposed to be running the competition for the benefit of all of us.

Why is the registration date for new clubs January? (*Jan 15 was the deadline for new clubs to register this year) Why is the Deadline not the end of September, allowing months more time to sort out any problems. If new clubs can't get the paper work in time then they simply must wait till the next season or go elsewhere.

Not knowing how many teams will be in the competition until March as it is most years is unacceptable and unnecessary with a simple administrative shift. And yes before you start I am aware of the limited office hours and staff the SAASL has.. I am not proposing more work.. simply shifting when it occurs.

It seems however that all to often the reason these things happen is so that the league gains the revenue from the new clubs when they register and so leave the door open till the last minute to accommodate them. Money that they the squirrel away with no obvious returns to the clubs even when promised (As with the cash clubs were going to receive back from the SAASL as part of the 5oth anniversary). While players pay out of their pocket for a full season of games that they are denied when incomplete divisions are formed and teams are allowed to complete contrary to the SASSLs own rules. (I.E. One team clubs in two team divisions.)

If the players don't complain to there own clubs however and the clubs don't complain or better yet help propose some better changes and systems, then things won't change and once more it will be players and clubs who will bear the brunt of the SAASL's seeming inability to administer the completion they oversee on our behalf.

:(
I hear you loud and clear, but you are looking at this from the point of view of your (presumably) relatively rare, stable club, and thinking why isn't everyone else as organised as us.

I don't blame the league on this, they are trying to give everyone a chance to get teams up.
Ultimately quite a few teams have to deal with players coming and going until late in the piece, for whatever reason.

Some examples just from my club (which could probably be considered relatively stable) over the last few years...
We pick a squad and a bunch who miss out on A's leave the club looking for a run elsewhere.
A bunch of players dropped from other teams join/rejoin us late in preseason.
You get a ton of players sign up at o'week.
You get no players signing up at o'week.
Your veterans all decide they will all come out to play together a couple of weeks from the season, when they appear from their christmas slumber.
Your veterans decide to start up an over-35 team and leave.
A bunch of players realise their team has folded because they didn't have enough for a team, so they join our leftovers to make up a full one.

You can't account for any of these, and ultimately it's about participation. Telling people to come back next year defeats the purpose.
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