histopry stealers v franchise fc in the FA Cup

[God is an Englishman]

Good dodging.

Then I'm confused what you mean!

[paul merson]

Good dodging.

Then I'm confused what you mean!

Im sure you are.

I just got pulled over on the way here for doing 59 in a 50 zone, I said to the cop that in my opinion this should be a 60 zone but as he said, rules are rules, laws are laws, here's your fine.

[adelaidepie]

Interesting topic MK Dons V AFC Wimbeldon. Most think Dons did the dirty on Wimbeldon but I received this the other day which throws a little bit of a different light on the Franchised club.


Interesting article for those who think AFC are complete angels.... Any powerful idea learns to use its biggest weakness. The Joker used Batman to manipulate Gotham, Capitalism used Communism to re-enforce the necessity of its own ideals, the business of football has used AFC Wimbledon to restore faith in the way it operates. The Dons started off as something different, but they’ve ended up the same as everyone else, its shiny exterior covering up the same putrid underbelly as the rest of the game.

I realise, that the mere implication that AFC Wimbledon are anything less than whiter than white may be difficult for you to stomach, but bear with me here, because beneath the media-induced glorious surface lurks a club that have left a trail of destruction in their wake, the irony of a bigger club damaging a smaller one clearly lost on them. (This seems a reasonable juncture to point out that a dislike of AFC is not a tacit support of MK Dons. My feelings towards them are not new, nor different from the multitude previously expressed by many, and as such I won’t go over them again.) But the club have been far from perfect, especially in its dealings with my club, Kingstonian, of whom AFCW are landlords, and this coming week sees a move that is symbolic in the course of this relationship, the destruction of the Ks home (The Dons away) stand, The Kingston Road End, the re-building of which will see it replaced with seats.

We all know about the (re?)birth of AFCW, and despite the damage done by the Dons there remains something subversive and inspiring about a club refusing to die and fighting against the system in order to survive and eventually thrive. But the circumstances by which they ended up at Kingsmeadow have been less heralded.

Intrinsically linked to the birth of AFCW are the troubled events surrounding Kingstonian at the turn of the millennium. After a successful spell in the conference under Geoff Chapple that saw a 5th place finish nicely supported by two FA Trophy wins, things began to go downhill. As enjoyable as the era was, the golden period was built upon financial mismanagement, and despite being a matter of seconds away from an FA Cup fifth round tie that may have balanced the books, the demise of Ks was inevitable.

After lurching from one economic calamity to another, the club ended up in the hands of one Rajesh Khosla, who was, in essence, an asset stripper. To cut a long, messy story short, Kingstonian’s situation continued to deteriorate, and the selling of Kingsmeadow would not only save the club, but also line Khosla’s pockets quite nicely. It’s at this point that the recently re-formed Dons stepped in. The timing was perfect for the phoenix club, who were searching for a ground at the time KM became available. While it seems a perfect fit, surely AFC of all clubs should have avoided dealing with a man whose raison d’etre was individual gain, whether it destroyed a club at not.

The historical balance is a delicate one. The sale ultimately saved the Ks, but the majority of the money was never seen by the club, a legacy that hurts the club to this day, as its total lack of assets has long-term implications. While it’s entirely possible that Kingstonian may no longer exist (in its current guise) were not it for the intervention of AFC, the loss of Kingsmeadow, and the way in which the scenario now plays leaves the Ks powerless. Not only is their future entirely dependent on decisions made by the Dons, but their lack of finances leave them powerless in any negotiations over the future of Kingsmeadow.

This is significant. Long-term, the future of Wimbledon does not lie at Kingsmeadow for the simple reason that for a club whose identity is so rooted in geography that surely they would drown in a bath of irony if their existence continued in Kingston. The end-game has to be a return to Merton (or somewhere a lot closer), in which case the future of Kingsmeadow hangs in the balance. (A side-issue, but key concern here is the future of Tooting and Mitcham. Their ground is far more ideally placed for Wimbledon, with plenty of room to expand, watch this space…) If Ks cannot afford to buy it off them, there’s a chance it could be taken over by the council and knocked down/turned into flats/turned into Tesco/turned into a shrine for AFC Wimbledon. This would leave Ks homeless, and perhaps hopeless.

But as I say, there’s balance here. Ks play rent-free at Kingsmeadow, the overheads are low, very low, and as such the continued existence is entirely down to AFC. However, this existence is at the expense of the chance of longer-term thriving. No money is made for Ks through the ground, and while this is an experience of many who share grounds, there is a bigger issue. As long as AFC exist in Kingston, the Ks crowds will suffer. Necessarily high prices amongst all the teams in the Ryman means the disparity between Ks and AFC ticket costs are not large enough to ensure new fans come to Ks. Your new or neutral fan in Kingston or the surrounding area will be drawn to AFC through a combination of a higher standard of football, and the chance to see the media darlings in the flesh.

For Ks, the possibility of getting new fans, in an area with so much choice of non-league teams (Met Police, Tooting, Sutton, Carshalton and Hampton are all crowd-stealingly-close-by.) A recent chat with a barman in a Thames Ditton pub was a prime example of this. A football nut, he is always looking for an excuse to go to a game, even stretching to take in a Met Police reserve fixture. But on a free Saturday his destination of choice is Kingsmeadow, to see Wimbledon. This is exactly the kind of fan Ks, and all non-league clubs, need to find to secure their future, but for Ks they are fighting a losing battle. Ks’ attendances are down by a third in recent years (they were higher in the Ryman South), this is entirely down to the continued existence of AFC. Those 150 or so fans that Ks have lost would mean very little to AFC, but for Ks, they mean everything. This ensures that the reach of Ks, both in terms of influence and league position is limited. The team that found themselves in the upper echelons of the non-league game 12 years ago now sit in the middle of the Ryman Premier, on a less-than-average budget for the division.

On a smaller scale there are other issues. It has never been made particularly public, but The Dons have made things difficult for Ks to arrange cup games in the past. A recent London Senior Cup tie was not allowed to be played on the desired date, despite it not clashing with any Dons fixture, with no firm reasoning ever given. It’s safe to assume that there were reasons, but this is typical of AFC, their concern is purely about themselves. This is seen in fixture planning (or blocking), the marketing in Kingston of the club, the removal of much of the Ks identity from Kingsmeadow and the destruction of the KRE (which was done with no consultation with Ks board). A microcosm of Wimbledon’s attitude is shown in the loss of the friendly between the two sides. This was agreed upon as part of the original deal, with Ks making money from it, however in recent years, as AFC’s profile has outgrown the need for such a goodwill gesture, the fixture has disappeared. Ultimately, AFC’s presence in Kingston means that the biggest losers from the MK Dons scandal are Kingstonian.

Perhaps you are thinking that this is entirely justified, surely any club’s priority should be themselves? But for Wimbledon, this is different, they embody more than a sodding club, they’re an idea, the last vestige of our heritage, a club whose existence was born out of a desire not to conform to the path football was taking. Because of this, it seems entirely reasonable to hold Wimbledon to a higher standard than the rest of the game. They ARE different, they are unique. Scrap that, they WERE different, they were unique.

They had the chance to restore localism to the game, but instead they’ve built a fanbase where perhaps a third have no connection to Wimbledon (old or new), their ideals have dissipated at the chance to make money and become fashionable, far from taking the game back to its roots, they’ve created a hipster club at the expense of the teams still rooted in their community that surround them.They’ve acted no differently than any other club in their situation would have, and that is exactly the problem. Wimbledon are happy to be put on this pedestal by Sports Interactive, FourFourTwo and whoever else wants a piece of the action. Well, perhaps they need to justify their tag as the people’s clubs in their current actions, not just in their history. (Yes, yes, yes, they do things in the community, but MK Dons are streets ahead of them on that.) Until the pretence that Wimbledon are anything different to the rest of the game subsides it remains entirely justifiable to hold them to a loftier account than Carlisle or Northampton.

This isn’t a problem with AFC, this a problem with the monolith that football has turned into. Anything different, challenging, subversive is swallowed up and becomes part of the beast and turned into a marketing tool, just wait until Balotelli launches his own brand of PL-approved condoms. Football isn’t about community any more, it’s not about real hope, it’s not about anything real any more. It’s a pre-packaged escapism where you can buy the replica shirt on the way in and comply for 90 minutes, Wimbledon had the chance to do it differently, to re-imagine what that could look like. They had to chance to show concern for the wider game, to be something the game could rally around to dream again. Instead they conformed, they became part of the system. Their disregard for Ks history, home end and chance to thrive is telling. This week sees the death of a home end, but more than that, the death of AFC’s claims to offer anything different.


Thanks

Taken from a mailing list im on.

Adelaidepie Julian

[Chade]

On a smaller scale there are other issues. It has never been made particularly public, but The Dons have made things difficult for Ks to arrange cup games in the past. A recent London Senior Cup tie was not allowed to be played on the desired date, despite it not clashing with any Dons fixture, with no firm reasoning ever given. It’s safe to assume that there were reasons, but this is typical of AFC, their concern is purely about themselves. This is seen in fixture planning (or blocking), the marketing in Kingston of the club, the removal of much of the Ks identity from Kingsmeadow and the destruction of the KRE (which was done with no consultation with Ks board). A microcosm of Wimbledon’s attitude is shown in the loss of the friendly between the two sides. This was agreed upon as part of the original deal, with Ks making money from it, however in recent years, as AFC’s profile has outgrown the need for such a goodwill gesture, the fixture has disappeared.

This reads like a whinge that Kingstonian haven't fared well - they were stuffed over by their own management and they want to blame someone. It might as well be the club that took some advantage of their disadvantage, right? The paragraph I've quoted above is the only direct reference to actual issues with AFCW in the entire piece...

[adelaidepie]

Chade,

The information I posted I grabbed from someone else on a mailing list that I am on in England. Im not a fan of either club but the people over in England seemed to think most was reasonably genuine.

[Chade]

Chade,

The information I posted I grabbed from someone else on a mailing list that I am on in England. Im not a fan of either club but the people over in England seemed to think most was reasonably genuine.

It might be genuine, but from that, there's not enough information to make a judgement beyond asking what exactly Kingstonian have an issue with, beyond a couple of snubs?

[God is an Englishman]

Chade,

The information I posted I grabbed from someone else on a mailing list that I am on in England. Im not a fan of either club but the people over in England seemed to think most was reasonably genuine.

It might be genuine, but from that, there's not enough information to make a judgement beyond asking what exactly Kingstonian have an issue with, beyond a couple of snubs?

afc wimbledon are just idiots FULL STOP. After all, all their supporters have already jumped ship from a couple of clubs. What do you expect?

[Chade]

Chade,

The information I posted I grabbed from someone else on a mailing list that I am on in England. Im not a fan of either club but the people over in England seemed to think most was reasonably genuine.

It might be genuine, but from that, there's not enough information to make a judgement beyond asking what exactly Kingstonian have an issue with, beyond a couple of snubs?

afc wimbledon are just idiots FULL STOP. After all, all their supporters have already jumped ship from a couple of clubs. What do you expect?

I didn't know people weren't allowed to support who they wanted.

[God is an Englishman]

I didn't know people weren't allowed to support who they wanted.

well now you know.

These are people that used to support one team and decided they didn't like that team anymore so switched to another team.

How is that a "supporter"?

[Chade]

I didn't know people weren't allowed to support who they wanted.

well now you know.

These are people that used to support one team and decided they didn't like that team anymore so switched to another team.

How is that a "supporter"?

Why is it all a one way street - i.e. that it is all the "supporter's"/person's responsibility? The club, if it wants to continue to have supporters, needs to offer something that the person wants - be that winning football, entertaining football, emotional attachment.

[God is an Englishman]

Why is it all a one way street - i.e. that it is all the "supporter's"/person's responsibility? The club, if it wants to continue to have supporters, needs to offer something that the person wants - be that winning football, entertaining football, emotional attachment.

because you support a team through thick and thin. My team could move to timbuktoo, in the 27th division playing long ball and I would still be a Millwall supporter. I might go and watch AFC Millwall when Millwall were at "home" but that emotional attachement to MY team won't change. If they drew each other in the cup at AFC's home ground, I'd be in the away end.

[Chade]

Why is it all a one way street - i.e. that it is all the "supporter's"/person's responsibility? The club, if it wants to continue to have supporters, needs to offer something that the person wants - be that winning football, entertaining football, emotional attachment.

because you support a team through thick and thin. My team could move to timbuktoo, in the 27th division playing long ball and I would still be a Millwall supporter. I might go and watch AFC Millwall when Millwall were at "home" but that emotional attachement to MY team won't change. If they drew each other in the cup at AFC's home ground, I'd be in the away end.

So, they offer you an emotional attachment. Good for you, sunshine. What if other people don't have the same level of emotional attachment?

I mean, I'm sure you don't like your job that much, and would change for a similar job with more money... but there's people that "love their job and wouldn't change it for the world (including money)". I guess you'd jump on some bandwagon and say that they don't have a choice either.

[God is an Englishman]

So, they offer you an emotional attachment. Good for you, sunshine. What if other people don't have the same level of emotional attachment?

I mean, I'm sure you don't like your job that much, and would change for a similar job with more money... but there's people that "love their job and wouldn't change it for the world (including money)". I guess you'd jump on some bandwagon and say that they don't have a choice either.

If you're comparing a job with supporting a football team then there's no point in continuing this conversation.

[Chade]

So, they offer you an emotional attachment. Good for you, sunshine. What if other people don't have the same level of emotional attachment?

I mean, I'm sure you don't like your job that much, and would change for a similar job with more money... but there's people that "love their job and wouldn't change it for the world (including money)". I guess you'd jump on some bandwagon and say that they don't have a choice either.

If you're comparing a job with supporting a football team then there's no point in continuing this conversation.

That's what someone says when they know they've been caught. Also, you obviously have trouble with abstraction.

[God is an Englishman]

So, they offer you an emotional attachment. Good for you, sunshine. What if other people don't have the same level of emotional attachment?

I mean, I'm sure you don't like your job that much, and would change for a similar job with more money... but there's people that "love their job and wouldn't change it for the world (including money)". I guess you'd jump on some bandwagon and say that they don't have a choice either.

If you're comparing a job with supporting a football team then there's no point in continuing this conversation.

That's what someone says when they know they've been caught. Also, you obviously have trouble with abstraction.

caught? Your comparing something we do in order to be able to eat, drink have a roof etc.. to something we all do for fun in our spare time.

something we have to do v something we want to do

If you're being serious then maybe this actually helps explain the sporting mentality in australia.

[Chade]

That's what someone says when they know they've been caught. Also, you obviously have trouble with abstraction.

caught? Your comparing something we do in order to be able to eat, drink have a roof etc.. to something we all do for fun in our spare time.

something we have to do v something we want to do

If you're being serious then maybe this actually helps explain the sporting mentality in australia.

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

[God is an Englishman]

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

This is truly laughable!!

Are you saying you don't want to watch football, do you get made to do it then? I have to work, I have bills to pay and a lifestyle to keep. I CHOOSE to watch football.

Anyone can do what they want but if you want respect then you don't just jump on a team because the one you choose last week isn't doing well enough.

[Chade]

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

This is truly laughable!!

Are you saying you don't want to watch football, do you get made to do it then? I have to work, I have bills to pay and a lifestyle to keep. I CHOOSE to watch football.

Anyone can do what they want but if you want respect then you don't just jump on a team because the one you choose last week isn't doing well enough.

lol. You really have no idea.

[God is an Englishman]

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

This is truly laughable!!

Are you saying you don't want to watch football, do you get made to do it then? I have to work, I have bills to pay and a lifestyle to keep. I CHOOSE to watch football.

Anyone can do what they want but if you want respect then you don't just jump on a team because the one you choose last week isn't doing well enough.

lol. You really have no idea.

Take some of your own medicine!

That's what someone says when they know they've been caught. Also, you obviously have trouble with abstraction.

[Raich Carter]

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

This is truly laughable!!

Are you saying you don't want to watch football, do you get made to do it then? I have to work, I have bills to pay and a lifestyle to keep. I CHOOSE to watch football.

Anyone can do what they want but if you want respect then you don't just jump on a team because the one you choose last week isn't doing well enough.

you just described chelsea and man u supporters...........wait fot it

[God is an Englishman]

No, I'm comparing two activities, where you can choose the parts of the exchange that satisfy your acceptability criteria to partake in it.

Oh, and so now it's something we want to do? But someone's only allowed to do it by your rules? lulz.

This is truly laughable!!

Are you saying you don't want to watch football, do you get made to do it then? I have to work, I have bills to pay and a lifestyle to keep. I CHOOSE to watch football.

Anyone can do what they want but if you want respect then you don't just jump on a team because the one you choose last week isn't doing well enough.

you just described chelsea and man u supporters...........wait fot it

what's blue and still fits? a man city fans old chelsea shirt

[predator]

Kick off tonight (11.00) followed by the 3rd round draw (1.10)

http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?p ... e=football

[God is an Englishman]

Kick off tonight (11.00) followed by the 3rd round draw (1.10)

http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?p ... e=football

that draw must be delayed because the draw is at 2:20pm GMT (12:50am in adelaide)

[predator]

Kick off tonight (11.00) followed by the 3rd round draw (1.10)

http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?p ... e=football

that draw must be delayed because the draw is at 2:20pm GMT (12:50am in adelaide)

FA site saying
The FA Cup with Budweiser
Third Round Proper draw
2.40pm, Sunday 2 December 2012
Wembley Stadium
Live on TheFA.com and ITV1
Ties to be played over the weekend of 5 & 6 January 2013
Winning clubs will receive £67,500 from The FA prize fund

[God is an Englishman]

Kick off tonight (11.00) followed by the 3rd round draw (1.10)

http://www.wiziwig.tv/competition.php?p ... e=football

that draw must be delayed because the draw is at 2:20pm GMT (12:50am in adelaide)

FA site saying
2.40pm, Sunday 2 December 2012

since when have the fa got anything right. Either that or someone told me the wrong time then.

[predator]

since when have the fa got anything right. Either that or someone told me the wrong time then.

If the FA have got it wrong then ITV 1 aren't going to be happy

[slowcoach]

It's 2.40pm on the dot on ITV1.

[slowcoach]

1441:


Crystal Palace v Stoke

Brighton v Newcastle

Tottenham v Coventry City

Wigan v Bournemouth

Fulham v Blackpool

Aston Villa v Ipswich

Charlton v Huddersfield

Barrow or Macclesfield v Cardiff

Barnsley v Burnley

Manchester City v Watford

Swansea v Arsenal

Leicester v Burton

Millwall v Preston

Cheltenham or Hereford v Everton

Derby v Tranmere

Crawley v Reading

Aldershot v Rotherham or Notts County

Middlesbrough v Harrogate or Hastings

Accrington Stanley or Oxford v Sheffield United

Southampton v Chelsea

QPR v West Brom

Peterborough v Norwich

Lincoln or Mansfield v Liverpool

Bolton v Sunderland

Nottingham Forest v Oldham

West Ham v Manchester United

Hull v Alfreton or Leyton Orient

Blackburn v Bristol City

Leeds v Birmingham

Bury or Southend v Bradford or Brentford

Luton v Wolves

Sheffield Wednesday v MK Dons