player developement?

[bandito]

Today watched a particular game where players played u17 then straight after play u16 benching players who had been there from the beginning......I don't profess to be a football developmental expert but can some of you more learned people please explain how dropping a more proficient player into a lower level serves to developed him let alone the player who now is sitting on the bench because if these players inclusion. I understand clubs dropping players for cup rounds as obviously this is a knockout compeition but to do this in a league game where there are clearly enough players surely wouldn't serve to develope either the played playing down or the resulting benched player. On a side note do these players need to be on the team sheet at the start of the game? Thoughts appreciated.

[grumbly]

Not a big fan of it, but sometimes having a more experienced player on the field can help a younger player. Guide him on the field, if you know what I mean. Just what I've observed, I'm no expert either 9far from it).

Dropping 3, 4 or more is all about winning, not developement.

[develop]

Name and shame please.

Only 4 players allowed from another age group. Other team can request ffsa check team sheet.

[bandito]

The players were age appropriate .....as far as naming and shameing.....I don't want to have this turn into an ugly post. Just can't understand the mentality...

[The moyesiah]

A couple of 13s injured, 14s drop down 2 players to assist, so 2 15s playing up drop down to fill the gap, causing dominos.
Discipline can also be a reason, some coaches force kids as discipline to come and sit on the bench and support players, they look like they didn't get a shot to some but we don't know the whole story.
Then of course there are others going for the win or the local rival team etc, there are many reasons and it is so easy to label what we want to think.

[bandito]

All valid reasons..however neither disciline or shortafe of players in this case.....im thinking it is a win at all cost mentality and very disappointing at this level, although winning is also an important part of player moral.....its as very fine line I guess.

[The moyesiah]

All valid reasons..however neither disciline or shortage of players in this case.....

how do you know? What age group?

[bandito]

I know from speaking to unhappy parents of opposition team already said it was u16s

[Armageddon]

come on guys...lets not be naive.....clubs cheat....regularly or infrequently when they have to....look at man utd cup...or go and watch 4 or 5 clubs any weekend .....if you want their names I am happy to pm you ....but not getting into a slanging match on this forum !

[bandito]

I have never mentioned cheating ever and wouldn't do so on this forum as I don't like the level that some of these posts end up at.?....however whilst i understand winning a game is important to a 16 year old young man......I don't like clubs pretty much having players drop to secure a win at the expense of another young player who has also paid his fees to learn and develop. Just wasn't sure if at under 16 winning overides developement.

[Keren]

I think I was at the same game.

As a parent of one of the players brought into the team it is very disappointing to read this post. Last year (when in the U15s) the U17 players selected to play yesterday were the ones benched when "more proficient" players were selected. The only way around this is to train very hard and show your club discipline and dedication. There is no bench at training.

Also one of the reasons not mentioned as to why players might be brought down in league matches is the team has a string a loses and is sliding towards the bottom of the ladder. That is not win at all cost mentality; it is a reasonable club decision.

[Toffeefox]

Keren,
I think you need to read your post very carefully. It is not a reasonable club decision to drop players down age groups to secure a win or stop a side sliding to the foot of the table.
your club, whoever they are (doesn't matter) made the decision to play these boys in a higher age group for their development and for good club reasons and then back filled those positions in the younger age group with other boys. How would you feel as one of those boys "just because you are losing" if others were brought in?, what on earth is going to inspire them to work hard on the training ground to improve the team position when at the drop of a hat the club decides to draught in other players. This behaviour has nothing to do with the title of the post "player development".

[The moyesiah]

some recent scores
20-0 / 14-0 / 12-3 / 10-0 / 16-0 / 12-1 / 14-3 / 12-1 / 17-0

would it be development to let these kids continue or lower some aged players with more skills to possibly help these kids to get some confidence? Scores like this make me wonder why the ffsa allow really good jsl teams flog others while a really poor jpl team are getting flogged by others. So one must ask is the jsl working? or should that jsl team be forced to possibly play elsewhere in the jpl to possibly prevent scores like this. Why can't the ffsa after 5 rounds switch a jpl team into jsl and vice versa. It's so common to see one club with a jsl team killing every team they play, while 5-10mins down the road a jpl team is worse, we need these players in the jpl not jsl.

[bandito]

Another question:-) at under 16...being that next year there is no 17s straight to 18s..does it have any importance where the 16s finish,,,,,,aren't the 18s linked to seniors...if this is correct then to drop players down into this age group would really have no relevance. I agree kids who are loosing by such huge numbers would not be benefitting and in fact could loose interest in the game,,,,,but constantly bringing in the same boys week in week out may do the same thing...........maybe some peoples opinion is right.....only have the jpl and have players that the club thinks they can work with...after all as they get older the cutting of players is inevitable....cruel I know but as they say....that's football!

[The Kings Jesta]

Could be a "seniors and reserves" type situation. Player trains and plays in higher level, but may not see too much game time one week so gets more match time in the lower age group?

I have written a post before about the league structure at junior level which effects the player movement/development and underlying theory's are...

1/ divide the leagues based on location (South/North/West/East 4 leagues if numbers permit)

2/ just like reserves and 18s all teams play in league that senior team is in (if no senior team then team plays in lowest division with no promotion available). This is the way it's done in a lot of Europe's top countries

3/ no more JSL teams, thus denying clubs a possible monopoly on talented players in a specific age group. One team per age group per club

I'm sure there could be other options, but something should be done to eliminate points at junior level, therefore eliminating the "need" to win

[FK Partizan]

Could be a "seniors and reserves" type situation. Player trains and plays in higher level, but may not see too much game time one week so gets more match time in the lower age group?

I have written a post before about the league structure at junior level which effects the player movement/development and underlying theory's are...

1/ divide the leagues based on location (South/North/West/East 4 leagues if numbers permit)

2/ just like reserves and 18s all teams play in league that senior team is in (if no senior team then team plays in lowest division with no promotion available). This is the way it's done in a lot of Europe's top countries

3/ no more JSL teams, thus denying clubs a possible monopoly on talented players in a specific age group. One team per age group per club

I'm sure there could be other options, but something should be done to eliminate points at junior level, therefore eliminating the "need" to win

Some very valid comments.

[Keren]

I think you need to read your post very carefully. It is not a reasonable club decision to drop players down age groups to secure a win or stop a side sliding to the foot of the table.
your club, whoever they are (doesn't matter) made the decision to play these boys in a higher age group for their development and for good club reasons and then back filled those positions in the younger age group with other boys. How would you feel as one of those boys "just because you are losing" if others were brought in?, what on earth is going to inspire them to work hard on the training ground to improve the team position when at the drop of a hat the club decides to draught in other players. This behaviour has nothing to do with the title of the post "player development".

I believe that player development is intrinsically linked to team development and ultimately club development. I think that it is simplifying the matter by talking about player development without considering the other "bigger picture" aspects of the club progression. The sport these players have chosen to play teaches them from the micro (ball skills, fitness etc) to the macro (club involvement and pride) and a whole range of attributes in between. It is a wonderful environment for them to be in, with a lot of people putting in a vast amount of effort to ensure their playing time is of benefit to them.

However call me old fashioned and jump up and knock me down but the aim of the football match is to win by using skill and game play strategies (within the rules and laws of the game). As I stated in my previous post if a player is benched they need to come out and work harder at training, every player gets an equal opportunity to show the coach and club what they are capable of at training. They should speak to their coach and say what do I need to do? The competition for spots of the the teams is getting tougher and tougher as they get up into the upper levels of the junior competition.

[James]

some recent scores
20-0 / 14-0 / 12-3 / 10-0 / 16-0 / 12-1 / 14-3 / 12-1 / 17-0

Also one of the reasons not mentioned as to why players might be brought down in league matches is the team has a string a loses and is sliding towards the bottom of the ladder. That is not win at all cost mentality; it is a reasonable club decision.

only sliding towards the bottom.

[The moyesiah]

why is sliding towards the bottom and possibly dropping players to prevent relegation any different to dropping players down to slide towards promotion? As much as everyone/most hate to say it, a club in the As has better recruiting chances than a club in the Bs or Cs ask any of the regular C clubs. In some cases the senior league even affects the juniors.

[bandito]

My post was specifically about the 16 & 17 age groups....correct me if Im wrong, does it matter where they finish.........all the other reasonings become irrelevant if it doesn't matter......no issues with develping players......we had around 3 under 15 boys in our team on Sunday, and 3 of our under 16's played up regularly.....

[James]

some recent scores
20-0 / 14-0 / 12-3 / 10-0 / 16-0 / 12-1 / 14-3 / 12-1 / 17-0

Also one of the reasons not mentioned as to why players might be brought down in league matches is the team has a string a loses and is sliding towards the bottom of the ladder. That is not win at all cost mentality; it is a reasonable club decision.

only sliding towards the bottom.

Hi - I James didnt post this. It is my username/account but didnt post it. The above statement is not the opinion of the real James. Further to this IMO for no reason should teams drop players to stay up. Thankyou

[OldGold]

some recent scores
20-0 / 14-0 / 12-3 / 10-0 / 16-0 / 12-1 / 14-3 / 12-1 / 17-0

would it be development to let these kids continue or lower some aged players with more skills to possibly help these kids to get some confidence? Scores like this make me wonder why the ffsa allow really good jsl teams flog others while a really poor jpl team are getting flogged by others. So one must ask is the jsl working? or should that jsl team be forced to possibly play elsewhere in the jpl to possibly prevent scores like this.
Why can't the ffsa after 5 rounds switch a jpl team into jsl and vice versa. It's so common to see one club with a jsl team killing every team they play, while 5-10mins down the road a jpl team is worse, we need these players in the jpl not jsl.

Very good point, totally agree.

[Keren]

correct me if I'm wrong, does it matter where they finish

It matters where they finish because the aim of the competition is be on top of the table.

I am wondering if some parents are focusing on the thought that being on the bench is a bad experience. While on the bench it is a good time to regather your thoughts, think about how you will correct mistakes made, reflect on what you did right, enjoy watching your team mates and study the opposition.

[bandito]

I respect your opinion however at our club.....In this age group their main aim is developement hence the promotion of some under 15a each week and not the dropping of players. I suppose our focus is trying to find a balance between both but certainly not to finish on top......would be nice........ but sometimes you need to have your eye on the bigger prize and focus on playing seniors....even if your U16s finish top...it is totally dependant on their seniors which league they play in next year.

[matty2323]

i think its important to be aware of the circumstances before judging teams, coaches, clubs on dropping players. dropping players from a higher age group dosen't necessarily mean they're coming from a better league. Coaching the u12's, there are several players playing in the 13C's who tried out for my squad but didn't make it. If i was short on numbers i would ask 1 of these kids to drop down for me. Does that mean im gaining an advantage? Just because a kid players 'up an age group' dosent mean he is being brought down just to win. What if he actually belonged to the 16's, but due to injuries, had been promoted to the 17's for a few games?

I know a young lad progressed to the 19's from my 14's squad 2 seasons ago, and last year in the 15's during the early periods of the season against far inferior opposition i asked him to play down. I had new players in the squad, and the best way for them to learn was to see it in practice. I gave him instructions on how i wanted him to play, he played 25 minutes in the first half, i sat with the 2 players i had dropped to the bench to watch him, pointing things out and then they played the rest of the game. It can be beneficial. Never underestimate the confidence kids get when playing alongside a kid they class as "better".

[Keren]

Bandito, you sound really nice and I respect your opinion too. I totally agree with you about the aim to get the Seniors to the top even though my understanding is that the Junior Competition is separate from the Seniors. Also the FFSA say they have no intention of removing the Under 17 competition. Hopefully we all agree this is a good thing.

[dom]

Enfield 17a team are there to win the league. They dont let players play 18s and their coach is the technical director - so much for development. What difference does it make to leagues if the 17s win - NON. What do players playing up in senior area get - EXPERIENCE!!!

[The moyesiah]

How about their last chance to win a junior league and or cup?
Whats the point in sending these kids up to not touch a ball and get flogged, they can run around chasing seniors at training.

Not all players benefit from playing up or experiencing seniors, after all the bench is the same bench in the juniors. However, considering these teams play on different days I don't see why they can't experience it to some degree.

Has anyone asked the players what they want?

[ikon]

keep them in the age group as long as possible- the cream always rises and demands to be played above their age level when its obvious their ability is too much for their age level.

Kids should try and be kept in their age level until at least u/13's- keep them with their friends...thats why they play!!! take that away and they will stop playing.

coming down an age level shouldn't be an issue ..

if the scores that were posted are correct the logical things to do is to is bring players down to help build confidence.A club would be irresponsible if it didn't .

its such an endless conversation each case is different

If your kid isn't playing or gets benched cos of player movement , get them to train more and play in any game they can...a's, b's , c's who cares....learn to stick it out...you should always be looking for a game for your kid disregard which team, age level and why ...just get game time where you can and keep training...extra if required