Cup Round 6th July div 4/5 collegiate ?

[The General]

Really not sure what the logic of having a women's collegiate league is,judging by their scores seems to be huge disparity between all the teams.
Top two or three collegiate sides probably div 1 standard, bottom collegiate sides probably div 5 standard

With the div 4/5 being all club sides, most are either new, or developing sides,never a chance of making the finals, as it turns out all 4 teams in the semi finals are collegiate teams.

[Playthewhistle]

Agree with you General.

I don't understand the benefit of having the colleagiate league. Some of those teams must get smashed badly when they could be competitive in Division 4 or 5. And as you said the better teams could easily play Division 2 or 1, which would surely help their development and be more enjoyable.

[themagnet]

I know one of the (lower) teams feels very much the same way and are wondering why they have to play in such a lopsided league. It was put to them that it is a 'central' based league where none of the teams have to travel very far.
It has worked on the mens side of things because it is the only FFSA backed amateur competiton. But it has multiple divisions so teams play at a level that suits them.

[Playthewhistle]

Yeah I think thats the problem that there isnt enough teams in it to be able to have divisions, and i dont feel thats likely to change.

Surely travelling 20-30 mins (i know its further for some clubs) to get a decent good standard game is worth it, and the collegiate teams being divided up into the divisions 1-5 accordingly can only be better for the sport at the end of the day, strengthening those divisions and letting players enjoy the game at a social or competitive level depending on where their skills are at.

[themagnet]

^^^

couldn't agree more, but it's not like FFSA are known for making logical descisions
After all, these teams were dispersed throughout the standard competiton initially. It'd be interesting to know whether it was the teams or FFSA drove the creation of a seperate division.

[Tyga]

As a WCL coach it is frustrating that the teams are very different standards however, some of the girls that are in those teams have never played soccer before and definitely don't want to play in a 'club' league and would rather play with girls who they have known throughout their schooling. I have tried to explain to them that there are lower division teams in the 'club' system that are still a decent social standard but they just aren't interested.

Also, there are teams from the 'country' that don't have the metropolitan club teams that they can join so they set up teams through their local country school and enter them into the collegiate league.

I think the WCL would be more attractive to players if more schools got involved or the MCL had a womens team under the same banner.

[cg1]

I'd imagine something like half the players in collegiate wouldn't have played club before and have only been enticed in to structured team soccer because of the Collegiate league.
2 leagues would help a lot while a closer alignment to the men's collegiate league would possibly also help.
I think you'll find the league has been driven very much by the teams involved.
A fairer cup allocation would have been for div 3 to be in the 4,5 & Collegiate.
On a positive side if the likes of Flinders Uni & Uni SA put teams in Collegiate then 2 divisions would be possible and even up the competition, pity they don't, they don't know what they r missing IMO.

As far as a 'country team' can only refer to Birdwood high school the name is a comical ongoing effort by one person at FFSA. We've been repeatedly told its all based on getting Torrens Valley men's team out of SA Amateurs in to Men's Collegiate League. It has nothing to do with no women's leagues for them to play in. Birdwood High school team never call themselves that (check Torrens Valley club website & their facebook) its a simple masquerade made up by same person at ffsa. Torrens Valley could & should play in women's division comp. I think you'll find as per Torrens Valley example they'll align men's amateur teams to kindies if necessary to get them away from amateurs & into men's Collegiate.

[Caretaker Coach]

Seems like The General has opened up an interesting debate.
I dont know how long the Collegiate League has been going, and one can only admire the passion some of you have to have a more even Collegiate competition.
Looking back at the last 3 seasons same 3/4 teams are on top each year,you would imagine they are the stand out teams,and it seems they always will be - because the teams in the bottom half will never get the chance to improve if they are getting smashed by the top sides every time they play them.
Flinders ,Adelaide Uni, and UniSA Magill, have been long time members of the SAWSA /FFSA probably have developed a lot of friendly rivalries over those years,which they would probably like to keep going, would be unfair to ask them to leave all that behind, just so the Collegiate league can become more viable competition.

Some of you may have misunderstood was was initially suggested - you do not have to leave your current team and join a club side, stay as you are,keep your identity, and wouldnt all of you want to play in a division where you will get a competitive match every week ?

The lesser skilled collegiate sides can then compete in a more even competition div 4/5 made up of social teams ( some clubs dont even train ) and also for some clubs, div4/5 is for the development of C or D teams.
When all is said and done, if All the Collegiate teams are happy with the current setup, and want to continue to be compared to div 4/5 when it comes to Cup Competition, I wish you all good luck.
I will finish off by saying, having been involved on/off women's soccer in this state about 15 yrs, main reasons girls leave the sport, or change clubs,-they are winning too easily,seek other challenges ( eg the challenge and opportunity of playing Prems ) or,
they get fed up with continually being thrashed, move to a move even competition,or worse give the game away. Just my opinion

[Playthewhistle]

Seems like The General has opened up an interesting debate.
I dont know how long the Collegiate League has been going, and one can only admire the passion some of you have to have a more even Collegiate competition.
Looking back at the last 3 seasons same 3/4 teams are on top each year,you would imagine they are the stand out teams,and it seems they always will be - because the teams in the bottom half will never get the chance to improve if they are getting smashed by the top sides every time they play them.
Flinders ,Adelaide Uni, and UniSA Magill, have been long time members of the SAWSA /FFSA probably have developed a lot of friendly rivalries over those years,which they would probably like to keep going, would be unfair to ask them to leave all that behind, just so the Collegiate league can become more viable competition.

Some of you may have misunderstood was was initially suggested - you do not have to leave your current team and join a club side, stay as you are,keep your identity, and wouldnt all of you want to play in a division where you will get a competitive match every week ?

The lesser skilled collegiate sides can then compete in a more even competition div 4/5 made up of social teams ( some clubs dont even train ) and also for some clubs, div4/5 is for the development of C or D teams.
When all is said and done, if All the Collegiate teams are happy with the current setup, and want to continue to be compared to div 4/5 when it comes to Cup Competition, I wish you all good luck.
I will finish off by saying, having been involved on/off women's soccer in this state about 15 yrs, main reasons girls leave the sport, or change clubs,-they are winning too easily,seek other challenges ( eg the challenge and opportunity of playing Prems ) or,
they get fed up with continually being thrashed, move to a move even competition,or worse give the game away. Just my opinion

very important points.

[cg1]

Interesting points.
Didn't misunderstand, maybe didn't make it clear enough, half the teams have been created because Collegiate League exists.
Yes they could disperse amongst divisions for possibly more even competition but as a guess you'd lose half the teams as soon as that occurred
A large part of ethos is based on old collegians and their friends continuing school rivalries against other colleges/teams, main point is not disband the League but look to grow it.
In the end continued participation or not from teams in it will make it or break it.
Not suggesting teams leave divisions necessarily like Uni they can have teams in both Collegiate & Divisions. UniSA wouldn't be in the same position but might find the style of competition in Collegiate actually attracts more players
Just my opinion too.

[Playthewhistle]

Interesting points.
Didn't misunderstand, maybe didn't make it clear enough, half the teams have been created because Collegiate League exists.
Yes they could disperse amongst divisions for possibly more even competition but as a guess you'd lose half the teams as soon as that occurredA large part of ethos is based on old collegians and their friends continuing school rivalries against other colleges/teams, main point is not disband the League but look to grow it.
In the end continued participation or not from teams in it will make it or break it.
Not suggesting teams leave divisions necessarily like Uni they can have teams in both Collegiate & Divisions. UniSA wouldn't be in the same position but might find the style of competition in Collegiate actually attracts more players
Just my opinion too.

Why do you feel half the teams would leave, If they could still play together and be called their school name? If half of the teams have been created because the league exists, does that mean other collegiate teams went to schools and told them to get involved? Would FFSA need to work closer and harder with schools to encourage teams to join if no collegiate league existed maybe?

Im not involved in the collegiate league and whilst I understand and agree with the point about the Cup, my main concern is what the CWL does for the sport, for womens soccer in SA. If you feel it actually gets more women playing the sport after school that wouldnt go and join other clubs, then it is positive. But I feel some of the players and teams could become better against more competitive sides each week, and worry about players who decide they dont want to get beaten by 10 goals every week so leave the game altogether and play something else. Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example. Maybe they dont want to do that though and are happy thrashing some teams some weeks and having competitive games others weeks because they are doing it with their friends for their school.

It is a very interesting topic. And nice to actually see something about womens soccer on this forum being talked about.

[Caretaker Coach]

Thankyou all for your comments , to express and respect each others opinions

Seeing the womens game go through so many different phases, I try and think what would be best for the game overall.
There are obviously some very good players in the Collegiate league, who could probably push for a Premier team spot,who knows maybe even W League, they may miss that opportunity playing in the current format.
One thing I do know ( as probably most people ) good players become better quicker, by playing against quality opposition on a regular basis.
Can always try it for one season then if the Collegiate teams still want to go back to having their own league, so be it.
All for the good of the game.

[The General]

Looks like I started an interesting debate

Just like to see an even competition ( as even as is possible )
From what I have seen some of the Collegiate sides are technically skilled enough to challenge some of the divison 1 and top div 2 teams.
Maybe after the Cup Final the winner of the "Collegiate Cup" could have a match against winners of div 1,2,3 Cup ?

[Lucas Leiva]

First of all, fairness and equality in results has never been FFSA’s focus in the Women’s competition. CWL and their admission of teams laden with former Prems players into lower divisions under a new name or year off is proof of that.

All of the teams that have ended consistently in the top 4-5 in CWL have former Prem / State League players (some with one, some with many) that are now either keen to play with friends, or are over the commitment to a higher level.

For instance, Torrens Valley aka Birdwood have a former Hills coach with former Hills State League players. Saints have former Prems players, and Seymour have former Prems players.

This is no different to the Men’s Collegiate League, except there is about 3 divisions between experienced players and beginners. It was proposed that the division be split in two at the start of the year but I think they ended the year 1 team short. It was also proposed to split the division like they did with the U17s at the halfway mark, but I don’t know why this wasn’t adopted.

The CWL may be a central div, and Div 5 a Northern div, but why have “divs” at all if teams want to lessen their travel. Create regional conferences and that’ll solve that.

The CWL is not a beginner division, which is unfortunate for clubs like Uni that use it as a beginner team. I imagine Flinders reluctance to enter this div is probably akin to this (and they have been asked). Hahndorf were also asked but higher CWL teams vetoed this addition (or so I was led to believe).

There is no easy solution to this, and as a result if a club or player is unhappy they can easily change their situation next season.

And if you want to see how CWL teams go against higher div teams, check the cup comp from last year. Div 1 down to CWL were in the same comp.

[The General]

Thank you for filling me in on the make up of the Collegiate League Lucas Leiva. Looking at the Men's Collegiate Competition lot of them two or more teams,makes it easy to have more divisions.
For the Cup, judging by last year's results, only one Collegiate side made it past the first round, maybe that is why they were put with the div 3/4 teams.
You make some valid points , must be difficult trying to organise the league, when you dont know which players are making the shift from one competition to another.
There is a bit more of a social aspect with the divisons competition, and I dont know about all the Collegiate teams, but some of the club sides have grandmothers, mothers, and others, all in the one team, cant see them playing Collegiate ?

Maybe we were a bit late getting the Collegiate League started ? a lot of the girls who attend the colleges are already tied in with clubs, as is the case with the College team I coach, which plays in the mid week competition after school.

If they were to integrate back with the divisional structure, we could try the grading system SAWSA use to have in place - after the first three matches, if the results were very one sided, you would grade the sides accordingly. Not a perfect solution, did give you a pretty good idea.

[gone]

Please forgive my intrusion, I only coached a women's team for one season about 20 years ago, but I found it a very rewarding coaching experience.

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, in the list of why women move from one club to another there is a (to me 'glaring') omission - poaching. I experienced it when I coached the women's team. Our best players were being told they should move to a 'better' club, rather than staying and building the club they were in. An example of that type of thinking was stated earlier: "Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example."

[Caretaker Coach]

Please forgive my intrusion, I only coached a women's team for one season about 20 years ago, but I found it a very rewarding coaching experience.

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, in the list of why women move from one club to another there is a (to me 'glaring') omission - poaching. I experienced it when I coached the women's team. Our best players were being told they should move to a 'better' club, rather than staying and building the club they were in. An example of that type of thinking was stated earlier: "Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example."

You may not be aware Otto 62 , most of those colleges play against each other during the week in an after school competition ( I help out at Scotch College ) they could get the benefit of rivalry of school competition, and compete against club sides on Sunday.
I totally agree with you about the poaching back then ( I dont know about now ? ) I was coaching a newly formed Northern club coming up through the divisions, we were getting a good group of girls together. We were top of 3rd division played Metro Prem team in the Cup round ( use to be Open Competition back then ) and they only beat us 2-1, and their coach had the audacity to approach some of my players ( post match ) about playing for his club following year. Dont even get me started about losing players to other clubs because you start sending them to state training and development squads.
College rivalry point is a good one, for the top four sides in the competition.

[themagnet]

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

I think if you look at the SAAFL model, which has a great tradition of having old collegian teams competing, this point isn't actually as relevant as you think. The boys schools in particular have some great traditional rivalry games when the boys are still at school, but once they become old scholars, the clubs strive to compete at the best level possible and are dispersed appropriately through the divisions. They don't form a separate league so they can just play amongst themselves to keep their rivalries going.

[The General]

Please forgive my intrusion, I only coached a women's team for one season about 20 years ago, but I found it a very rewarding coaching experience.

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, in the list of why women move from one club to another there is a (to me 'glaring') omission - poaching. I experienced it when I coached the women's team. Our best players were being told they should move to a 'better' club, rather than staying and building the club they were in. An example of that type of thinking was stated earlier: "Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example."

You may not be aware Otto 62 , most of those colleges play against each other during the week in an after school competition ( I help out at Scotch College ) they could get the benefit of rivalry of school competition, and compete against club sides on Sunday.
I totally agree with you about the poaching back then ( I dont know about now ? ) I was coaching a newly formed Northern club coming up through the divisions, we were getting a good group of girls together. We were top of 3rd division played Metro Prem team in the Cup round ( use to be Open Competition back then ) and they only beat us 2-1, and their coach had the audacity to approach some of my players ( post match ) about playing for his club following year. Dont even get me started about losing players to other clubs because you start sending them to state training and development squads.
College rivalry point is a good one, for the top four sides in the competition.

Most of the girls in the Collegiate league probably dont go to the schools anymore, and as Otto 62 mentioned, the Collegiate comp could be a good way of continuing the rivalry after they leave school.

[Playthewhistle]

Please forgive my intrusion, I only coached a women's team for one season about 20 years ago, but I found it a very rewarding coaching experience.

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, in the list of why women move from one club to another there is a (to me 'glaring') omission - poaching. I experienced it when I coached the women's team. Our best players were being told they should move to a 'better' club, rather than staying and building the club they were in. An example of that type of thinking was stated earlier: "Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example."

So how far do you think a great player at Seymour could go with Seymour? if its just about playing against other collegiate teams and bulding club/school rivalry that is so important to everyone in the CWL league, how does Seymour 'build'? by having 4 Seymour CWL teams? And how much time does that take and how much older does a young player get while they wait for that and hang around? I am not at all associated with Metro, I play and am heavily involved with the running of Salisbury Inter, so Metro are technically a rival, but my point is highly skilled players could go to a club like Metro for example, and work their way to Prems and possibly even in the W League. Which in my opinion, is the best thing for the sport (obviously provided it's what the individual wants) to play at the highest level in SA and aspire to be the best. I did not suggest poaching and im a little offended you took my comment as 'an example of that type of thinking'

[gone]

Please forgive my intrusion, I only coached a women's team for one season about 20 years ago, but I found it a very rewarding coaching experience.

One point stated twice and ignored by later replies was that CWL sides want to play against their traditional rivals. If you split them all into different SAWSA divs they wouldn't be able to do that.

Also, in the list of why women move from one club to another there is a (to me 'glaring') omission - poaching. I experienced it when I coached the women's team. Our best players were being told they should move to a 'better' club, rather than staying and building the club they were in. An example of that type of thinking was stated earlier: "Some of the young girls playing together in teams like Seymour are great and could go alot further in a club like Metro for example."

So how far do you think a great player at Seymour could go with Seymour? if its just about playing against other collegiate teams and bulding club/school rivalry that is so important to everyone in the CWL league, how does Seymour 'build'? by having 4 Seymour CWL teams? And how much time does that take and how much older does a young player get while they wait for that and hang around? I am not at all associated with Metro, I play and am heavily involved with the running of Salisbury Inter, so Metro are technically a rival, but my point is highly skilled players could go to a club like Metro for example, and work their way to Prems and possibly even in the W League. Which in my opinion, is the best thing for the sport (obviously provided it's what the individual wants) to play at the highest level in SA and aspire to be the best. I did not suggest poaching and im a little offended you took my comment as 'an example of that type of thinking'

Sorry, didn't mean to cause offence.
I don't know Seymour, but your comments in this latest post seem somewhat disrespectful towards them and perhaps reinforce my thinking. I wonder if the problem is that you don't see a problem. I'll refrain from further comment.

[Der kaiser]

Hi All - Sorry I'm a bit late to the thread. I don't read up on this forum often.

As a coach of a WCL team for the last couple of seasons, and a committee member who helped establish the team, I'm in a good position to provide some commentary around the league and a rebuttal to some of the more misguided comments.

1. Many of the teams are primarily about the social experience for the girls. I can only speak for my Club, but I presume most of the same things apply across the other clubs when I say that the girls have no ambition to play at a higher level at this stage. Football is a fun way to keep fit and socialise and although each team will have players who can definitely play at a higher level they choose not to for various reasons - University, work, family commitments etc.

2. In line with this social experience the WCL clubs won't train as often as the other Divisions. We train once a week for example with maybe a 2 week preseason of twice per week training. Often players can't make it to training because of other commitments and that's fine. I’d also point out that there are also no ‘politics’ involved in most of these Clubs given they are pretty young and all small (1 or 2 teams barring Adelaide Uni).

3. With regards to the supposed ‘lopsided’ nature of the competition, I think you’re being way too harsh and ignoring the exact same deficiencies of other leagues! This year the top 6 WCL have been very competitive and have shown they can all take points off of each other. The 6th placed WCL team have conceded 30 in 15 games – that’s an average of 2 goals per game conceded. By contrast the 6th placed Div 3 team have conceded 54 in 18 – 3 goals a game. The bottom two teams in Div 3 have conceded 78 and 107. This is pretty much the same as the bottom two teams in the WCL at the moment. Overall, have a look at the wins, the goal differences of the leagues and some of the individual match results and you’ll see that the WCL in fact looks more competitive than Divisions 3 – 5 and it is the only women’s league with a full complement of 10 teams!!!! I’d go as far as saying that the competitiveness of the WCL this year has actually been better than Div’s 3-5 and not far from Div 2 considering that those are only 8 team comps.

4. With regards to the Cup being split, that was a choice taken by the FFSA at the start of the year following feedback from the WCL Club’s that they didn’t really think they stood a chance if grouped with Div 1/2 etc. My personal feedback was that Div 3 should probably be included in the 4/5/WCL Cup, but it was excluded this year. In hindsight the WCL Clubs are far too strong for Div 4 and 5 teams based on the Cup results and Div 3 should be included to increase its legitimacy.

Overall the WCL was established to cater for collegiate affiliated clubs that have players more interested in football as a pathway to socialising than advancing to ever more competitive leagues. My team is probably a 50/50 mix of players with no football experience and players with several years club experience as juniors. At least a few of my girls definitely have the ability to play at a higher level (Div 1 and Prems/Res) if they wanted to, but they don't for various reasons. The WCL has proven popular and suits their lifestyle and enables them to keep playing the sport. If you are going to mandate players and teams moving up to support maximum competitiveness of the various leagues then you will lose a lot of players to the sport. If the FFSA go down the path of focusing only on ‘elite’ and ‘high level’ competitions as suggested by a couple of comments in this thread, then you’ll lose a lot of girls to the sport, or there will be a break away league to cater for teams involved in the WCL, which has been previously discussed. I hope that doesn’t happen and I don’t want it to, but if the FFSA took on board the attitude of some of the comments mentioned in this thread towards the WCL, then it would no doubt be raised again.